It’s a rare feat for a filmmaker to spend ten years on a single feature film, but that’s exactly what director Francesco Saviano did with On the Line. Starting in 2013, Saviano’s film charts the rise of three NYC boxers (Danny Jacobs, Will Rosinsky, and Patrick Day) whose careers go down very different paths. On the Line is unusual and remarkable not only for the length of time spent filming its subjects, but also for its artful, unvarnished depiction of “the loneliest sport.” On the Line gets under the nailbed of the hopes and dreams of the fighter, and how they are rarely fulfilled, and so often end in disappointment and even tragedy.
In showcasing the sport’s challenging nature, Saviano could not have asked for a more diverse sampling of boxers. From the way they fought to the way their careers came to a close, Jacobs, Rosinsky, and Day present three possible outcomes that may not cover the entire breadth of a boxer’s possibilities but do offer an expansive view of what it’s like to make a living getting punched in the face.
In 2021, two-time SAG award-winning actor Vincent Piazza (Jersey Boys, Boardwalk Empire, Tulsa King) came aboard as a producer on the film and helped bring the picture to completion. I recently sat down with Saviano and Piazza for an in-depth discussion of the genesis and fruition of this outstanding documentary.
FightsATW: It would seem to me, particularly in your case, Francesco—having spent the full ride on the film, you really have to believe in something like this because if you were making a film about Mayweather or Canelo or Pacquiao, it’d be easier to do. When you start a film like this, you don’t necessarily know where you’re going to end up; things arise, and the drama comes or doesn’t on its own. Tell me about the process of committing to this.
Francesco Saviano: When we first began, we started with Will, and I think just him as a person, as a guy who had a backup plan in a career where a lot of guys don’t have a fallback, in itself was an interesting jumping off place. But we also knew we wanted to branch out from there and get a bigger picture of boxing, touching on some guys who were really skyrocketing, becoming stars, and also people who were at the beginning of that process. I think we wanted to give a well-rounded view of the realities of boxing as much as we could. I don’t want to say the idea of following like a Canelo or a superstar was not interesting to me, but I think getting a more realistic picture of boxing was much more intriguing. Once we started with Will, he’s such a charismatic guy, and he was really our entry point into boxing, and from there, we naturally just followed the story. We got in touch with (trainer) Joe Higgins through Will, and then we learned more about Danny and how Danny and Will came up together at Star City. And then there was this young guy, this really incredible young person, Patrick Day, who was training out at PAL with Joe (Higgins), and when Will was there as well. We found out more about his story, like how Danny was like his mentor, and it just seemed to make sense after a while that we concentrate on these three guys, and we got lucky.
All three of them are such incredible people. And so it was easy at that point to just want to spend time with these guys and to want to tell their stories. But the process of telling that over ten years, I’d be lying if I said we had a clear idea of the story. My wife, Marika Hacking, is the editor and also another producer on the film. We were living with this thing along with Brendan McGee, who was another producer, and it was his idea in the beginning to pursue this story. But it was a hard journey, and at times I was asking myself what the hell I was doing. Are we really a little crazy for doing this year after year? When Vincent came in a little bit later on the project, he gave some wonderful shape to the project and gave us a direction. Vince was the one who said, I think it’s these three guys. That’s the story.
FightsATW: Vince, how did you get pulled into the film?
Vincent Piazza: Francesco, Marika, and I got into a conversation about this passion project I heard they had going for quite some time, and the sheer endurance of it, I told them I’d love to see what they have. They had an assembly of footage and a shape of the movie, and immediately, the integrity and the authenticity pulled me in. But also, another thing I’ll add is the search for the truth, not only of Francesco as a filmmaker, but the fighters themselves. I just found it contagious and moving. I thought they were such likable figures to get to know. I often hear that boxing is a metaphor for life, and I felt like this movie is like a Petri dish of that description. Three amateur champions embark on this journey to pursue their dreams and have three wildly different outcomes, for me, just felt really honest and almost calls to a higher authority of what we’re governed by, how these things can happen. Even the shocking reveal of Danny’s career along the way, wider audiences might find that a bit stunning to come back from something like that. I was immediately pulled in and haven’t been able to take my eyes off it since.
FightsATW: Would the two of you consider yourselves “boxing guys” before you took on this project?
Vincent Piazza: I was always a boxing fan—the early 2000s, with that welterweight renaissance, that really got me into it. In more recent years, I’ve been a bit taken out of it by the charade in some aspects of it; I was just less and less interested in it. And that was another reason I was drawn to this movie: the sanctity, the craft, and the purity of what these guys were pursuing. You don’t just hear about the purses, you hear about how they’re trying to improve and grow.
Francesco Saviano: I was a boxing fan growing up, and then I was involved in martial arts for quite a while, and I competed a little bit, but nothing anywhere near what these guys did. I was always attracted to and interested in the fight game. But stepping into this world was something different. I knew I was always fascinated by this desire that these guys have, this impulse to get into a ring with someone else and just be one-on-one. There are people in your corner, but it’s really just you in there. Also, the idea of pursuing something that you love, which I know we all do. Whether it’s writing or acting, how people can be so committed to something that they care for so deeply, even if it means that you might get seriously hurt or lose their life. It’s a type of bravery that’s admirable. As Ryan Songalia said, you’re half naked, you’re in front of a crowd, and you’re getting the crap kicked out of you.
FightsATW: There’s a quote in the film, which says even when you’re getting better, you’re getting punched in the face, which is just a wild way to think about a profession.
Vincent Piazza: But metaphorically true of most, the rejection that we all face. As an actor, I can relate to it, but I have so many friends in so many other fields that it’s not as literal, but it’s hurtful. You’re in pain, getting better.
Francesco Saviano: This film, in some ways, has been a fight because it took so long to make, and then just getting a film out in today’s media landscape, we were so saturated with all sorts of stuff. This wasn’t like a Netflix-funded film. This was a very bootstrap-type thing. Even getting the film out there has been a fight.
Vincent Piazza: We’ve been punched in the face quite a bit throughout this process (laughs). It’s not for the faint of heart trying to make a film. But we’re really proud of it, again, the story we feel is an important one. While it lacks the presence of splashy fighters, this is about more about the everyman, the journeyman. It feels special to us for that reason alone.
FightsATW: I think what’s interesting about the movie is that this is a story that’s also about a certain level of pragmatism. The most obvious person to refer to is Will, who has this option to either be a boxer or to join the FDNY. There’s this question that naturally occurs in his story, which is which one is the side job? Because these are two professions that you either have to give a hundred percent to, or you can’t do them. And he does balance the two for a while, but eventually he does have to choose. And that choice is just fascinating because he has an inner understanding of himself that I think is sometimes unusual for athletes.
Vincent Piazza: I think that awareness came from within, and you saw him find an off-ramp in a very honest way.
Francesco Saviano: Someone reminded me recently that originally Will was going to become a teacher. So he always had this idea of protecting himself, and knowing the risks of boxing – having one foot in and one foot out of fighting – but also, how can you not? You also have to think of your life. Can I keep doing this and support myself?
FightsATW: He also had a family to consider. His concerns about his career were not centered around self. Athletes are taught to be, on some level, fairly selfish, even in team sports.
Vincent Piazza: Something interesting in Will’s journey that stuck out to me is his realization that maybe there’s this other thing at work above him. There’s a political element to how these things are decided in the sport. It saps something from you. It’s almost like there’s a rung of the ladder that’s missing. I just thought that was such an interesting bit of awareness of what you’re pursuing and how you might be able to either make that leap or step aside.
FightsATW: Speaking to pragmatism even further, Danny clearly had the strongest career. He was a world champion. He fought Golovkin and Canelo and took them both the distance. Even so, Danny’s story isn’t an easy one. He had cancer wrapped around his spine. Looking at the X-ray that you see in the film, it is just staggering. It’s like a snake, wrapping around him. He made the decision to come back from that, and he was successful. But he also didn’t do what a lot of boxers do: he didn’t stay too long. At the point when he realized that he probably couldn’t compete at the highest level anymore, he decided to walk away. Again, an unusual choice for many fighters.
Vincent Piazza: He was the last one to wrap up his career. It got to a point where we were waiting–is Danny going to fight again? Is there more to follow here? He had given that quote years prior: ‘I’ll know when I’ve had enough; I’ll know when it’s time for me to pack it in.’ So we were sitting on that. He knew, he stepped away on his own terms.
Francesco Saviano: At the end of the filming, when we were finally wrapping up, we’d be almost done, Vincent said, I think Danny’s going to retire soon. Let’s just wait and see what happens so we can put it in the movie. It’s really great that we were able to stick around that long. Vin was right on with deciding to wait. Give it a little more time, and let’s see if we can put a button on it.
FightsATW: What’s so interesting regarding Patrick is that he had options that most fighters don’t have. Most of the people who go into the ring and put on gloves come from difficult backgrounds. They are often surrounded by very difficult circumstances. Patrick had a supportive family. He was a very bright young man. He had options academically. Not many boxers go to college or even have that option. Patrick seemed to just really love boxing. He became attached to it despite having the easiest off-ramp of all three.
Vincent Piazza: It’s always fascinated me, his need for boxing. Perhaps it was something in his identity that he needed. There were plenty of opportunities for him outside of boxing. He wasn’t surrounded by yes people. It’s quite the opposite, actually. He was operating on something internal that he needed. Francesco, you certainly got to know him. I know him through the footage, but you got to spend time with him. What do you think?
Francesco Saviano: I think that quote in the film where Sean Monaghan says his uncle asked him, if I give you a million dollars, would you stop boxing, he replies, ‘You can gimme $10 million, and I still wouldn’t stop boxing.’ Patrick was in love with the sport, and he was good at it. I first met him in 2014, and I saw him again a couple of years later. We were with Will a lot at that time, and we were also on the periphery, following Danny with his fights. When I saw Pat again, he had just ballooned up, and he was so strong, and he had been really dedicating himself to his strength and fitness, and also his boxing practice. He was taking it seriously. It was his life. He loved the sport. All three of these guys we really cared about.
And when Patrick died, it was tough to continue with the movie. We didn’t really know how we were going to do it, but we felt compelled to because he was such a special guy. For all of us, for Vince, myself, and my wife, Marika, the editor, and everyone involved, we didn’t want to have a whiff of exploitation in this movie because that would be like the worst possible thing we could do. I hope we achieved that. Even with his death, I know a lot of people in the boxing community want to address that last fight and what led to it, and who’s to blame. And I have my feelings on it, but I didn’t feel comfortable because we didn’t have all the information. It wasn’t out of a lack of interest. We felt that the story we were telling was the way we wanted to tell it.
Vincent Piazza: There’s another movie that could be made that litigates that fight. That’s an interesting movie for sure, but not the movie that we wanted to make. To speak to Francesco’s integrity, there was an offer from a network that came in soon after Patrick’s death to buy the footage from him and maybe tell a different story. Francesco said no.
FightsATW: I want to speak to an artistic choice that was made regarding the fight when Patrick was hurt. Sometimes a blank screen puts the viewer in a place where the imagination takes over. The choice to put up a black screen, with only the fight commentary being heard when Patrick is injured, was profound.
Francesco Saviano: There was a little bit of PTSD in creating the movie. My wife and I were in the house editing, and we were asking ourselves, ‘How are we going to tell the story?’ We didn’t want to keep watching this footage. There was actually a fight prior to that where he got pretty badly hurt. We were telling about this person’s life and then spending time living in their death, so to speak, story-wise and also on a personal level, that was something I don’t think we could have done. Maybe there’s some argument there that as a filmmaker you’ve got to put all those things aside, but I do strongly feel and I’ll stand by it that it was the right choice not to show that fight, and also for his family. Jean Day, Patrick’s brother, who’s in the movie, I speak to him sometimes, and he has a lot of opinions about what happened, as he should. He was saying the one thing his family doesn’t want is that fight being shown. We had to tell the story, but we didn’t think we needed to show the fight to tell it.
Vincent Piazza: I think the black screen and the voices of the commentary tell the story, especially after spending an hour and a half getting to know and care about these people. In the conversations that Francesco and I had about it, it felt like the obvious right thing to do was to go to a black card and let the audience imagine it. There’s already a sense of movement in the story that will carry through over that black card as you listen to the coverage and hear what happens.
FightsATW: It felt more powerful because the film doesn’t do that anywhere else. So when it stops, and then you just see black, and you just hear the sound, it reminds us of why we’re all afraid of the dark.
Vincent Piazza: That’s beautifully put.
FightsATW: I stumbled into that.
Francesco Saviano: No, you’re a writer.
FightsATW: If there is a fourth most character in the film, I think it’s Joe Higgins. He’s Patrick’s trainer; he’s been around these guys to some degree since they’ve all been fighting. He says that he doesn’t feel responsible, but some of his words and the fact that he briefly shuttered his gym, I just wonder if you believed him entirely that he didn’t feel any guilt.
Vincent Piazza: I think there’s an ocean of feelings and conflicts that exist in him, and I imagine that would be for any healthy person. He even says that he was the colonel; there’s certainly a sense of responsibility that he felt. So he was, I thought, forthcoming with that. Underneath that, my God, I just wouldn’t be able to speak for that. But it was clear to me, watching the footage and those interviews, that he certainly has a lot of complicated, difficult feelings about it. Especially as he referenced earlier that Patrick, in a way, was a surrogate for his lost brother from 9/11. He was trying to build back happier times in his life. It is a tragic thing for everyone involved.
FightsATW: I think that the heartache of it is very real, of course, but we’ve seen this before in boxing where the corner so badly wants to believe in the fighter even though their eyes are telling them a different reality. It’s the idea that maybe there’s still a chance.
Vincent Piazza: Absolutely. As Sean Monaghan so beautifully put it in the movie, this isn’t like baseball, where you lose a little bit on your fastball. When you lose a little bit in the ring, it becomes evident all too fast and in a very destructive way. I think there’s faith in the fighter that’s an element, but also, Patrick at 27 years old is a grown man who also is very thoughtful and introspective and had a sense of devotion to being a fighter. Would Patrick have replaced Joe if he’d stopped the fight? His convictions were so strong, you almost wonder which way Patrick would go in that equation.
Francesco Saviano: That particular question with Patrick and his career is a very complicated one. As long as I knew him, he was always committed to the sport. It’s interesting though, because I wasn’t actually filming him that last six, seven months. We filmed that fight in 2018, where he won, and then he had a fight or two after that, where he lost one and maybe won one. I wonder, because he was always talking about the possibility of being shunned by the boxing community because of losses. I don’t actually know where his psychology was later on that year. In boxing, everything can shift for you in six months. I do wonder if he was starting to think of transitioning out of boxing. I have a feeling maybe that was starting to creep in.
Vincent Piazza: Patrick spoke to Will’s departure from the sport, about him becoming a firefighter, and that’s good for Will. But you didn’t see him take any consideration into his own path. I felt he was more motivated by his losses in a way, to get back something or to prove something. I admire that aspect of someone who isn’t going to accept the perception by a community, that I’m going to defy that. A loss can make you feel like an underdog again, and that’s fuel.
FightsATW: It doesn’t take very long to go from prospect to suspect if you have a loss or two in boxing, especially if they’re early on. If you’re within your first 20 fights and you lose twice, it is very hard to ascend after that. I think Will had this understanding because he had lost three fights out of 22. At what point do you just become an opponent for somebody else? You’re a rung on somebody else’s ladder.
Vincent Piazza: That’s right. Will certainly had that willingness, and Sean spoke to it as well. He said when I was coming up, I fought a guy that was 2 and 18. So imagine the manager that you know is training that guy for a fight. What do you say? You’re going to go on a tear, get back to .500? That’s the mysterious thing I think that resides in all of us about what drives us in our given pursuits. What is that thing? And Patrick’s is most mysterious because he comes from such a good family, such a well-educated family. A really solid-looking middle-class life. But yet he had this thing.
FightsATW: Anyone who follows Lou Dibella on social media, his conflict with this sport is very palpable, even out there in 280 characters or less. In the film, I think part of it is seeing him and the way he breathes and the way he sits back, there is a sense of exhaustion that he is starting to hate the business that has built his own life on. He makes a statement that 1% make all the money, and everybody else is just struggling. What I’ve been reading on social media absolutely translated in the film regarding his own discontent.
Vincent Piazza: He reminded me of Moody in Odets’ Golden Boy. He was like the quintessential boxing promoter manager who has this conflict.
Francesco Saviano: He said this is a shitty, horrible, fucking business. That’s like the first thing he said. He probably shared that same sentiment ten times throughout the interview. He’s such a complicated guy. It was just fascinating getting into Lou’s brain for an hour-long interview. He definitely is working through it, his relationship with boxing.
FightsATW: There’s another great line in the film, which is “when a fighter wins, we win, when a fighter loses, he lost.” What’s interesting about this film is that all three of these fighters suffered losses on the road. But it did seem like people stuck with them and didn’t turn them into orphans. It really seemed like there was some community that never left these three guys.
Vincent Piazza: That was revelatory for me. Because again, boxing, I immediately go mano a mano. This is two people squaring off in the ring. What you don’t see, and what I thought Francesco captured beautifully, was that the community was almost a fraternal order. You have to spar with someone. You can’t just train by yourself. And these fighters got to know each other so well. All fighters have this experience and are part of some community. You don’t just rise out of obscurity. You’re reared by a community.
Francesco Saviano: Maybe I’m naive in thinking this, but to me it seemed as if it was such a community that it really didn’t matter your gender, your race, your religion. I’m not talking about the business of boxing, but the fighters and the trainers. As long as you were doing the work and you were showing up and you were dedicated, that was all you needed, and you were going to be accepted into the group of whatever gym you were in. At a time when there’s so much division, to be in a space where it wasn’t about that, as far as I could tell. People were there all out of love for one thing, and they were just supportive of each other, and it was quite beautiful.
FightsATW: How has making this film affected your personal feelings about boxing? I know I deal with those myself. There’s beauty and brutality in this sport, and it can be hard to measure your own feelings about loving something so dangerous.
Vincent Piazza: I thought Sebastian Junger in the movie spoke beautifully to it. That need. What is that thing in us that needs it or can’t take our eyes off it if we’re not willing to do it? We tune in because we need to see it.
Francesco Saviano: It’s kind of like the end of Apocalypse Now. I feel like Brando, “the horror, the horror” when I’m watching it, but at the same time, that was some nice footwork, setting up with the jab. It is like the chess pieces are being moved and the strategy, so it’s a very complicated thing. And obviously, with Patrick dying, but I still watch it, so what does that mean? It’s a very complicated thing, and I don’t think there’s an easy answer to that.
FightsATW: There are a number of ways to be great. You can make a documentary that’s a little bit more of a polemic that’s trying to persuade, and those can be really good. Like Spike Lee’s documentary about Katrina, I was stunned and moved by it. But there’s also where you decide not to tell people how to feel or what to think and let them fill in the space. That’s what this movie does. There’s an elegance to that.
Vincent Piazza: You’re putting your finger on something that Francesco and I talked about, almost ad nauseam, just to make sure that we were objective and not trying to put some kind of partisan argument into the movie to feel a certain way. Just this is what it is. For better, for worse. Because again, the flip side of it in the story is Danny Jacobs. Look at the extraordinary career and triumph that he’s known the sport to be, but then there’s that other side.
Francesco Saviano: I think that’s also why we didn’t feel comfortable going into all the nuance of Patrick’s last fight, because I think that would’ve just forced our hand to share our feelings on the sport. Not that we want to gloss it over, we don’t at all of course. And even at the end of the movie, the idea of those two kids outside PAL throwing the punches is that the cycle continues. Even with the business being terrible and the women not getting the shot that the men get and all the stuff we talk about in the movie, at the end of the day, it’s going to keep going on. People are still going to be involved, so perhaps we were putting our perspective in there. I guess you can’t fully avoid that. But we really tried not to, even with the main characters we cared for deeply. It’s just these are human beings.
FightsATW: Where and when can people see On the Line?
Vincent Piazza: March 19th, there’s a GAME TIME sports art conference, the largest sports art conference in the country, taking place at the Perez Museum down in Miami. We’ll premiere there. Then we have a New York City premiere in late April. Then we’ll finally be available on streaming in early May on Apple TV, Amazon, and YouTube.
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